About

Like many people in Scotland, the independence referendum of 2014 sparked a political interest in me that hadn’t previously existed.  Like the majority of people in Scotland, that political interest led me to Vote No. If this automatically stops you from reading any further then great, I have no time for close-minded people.

I don’t intend to delve too much into the reasons why I voted No, although I suspect that much of it will seep into other posts if this blog becomes a long term exercise.  Briefly then, I started off as a “soft” No vote: arriving at this decision from a standpoint of general apathy for politics; ignorance of many of the arguments from either side but a general, and somewhat irrational, dislike of Alex Salmond and the SNP; and a fervent, and absolutely rational, dislike of nationalism.  Then, around March of 2014, I had a Twitter exchange with a Yes voter which I intended to be light-hearted but degenerated into a full-on debate. A debate for which I was embarrassingly unprepared and in which, I’m not ashamed to admit, I was soundly thrashed.

Like most people, I hate being shown up and, most of all, I hate being in a position where I feel like I don’t know a fecking thing.  This encounter was the catalyst for me to find out what was actually going on. As I researched the arguments from both sides I tried to be even-handed and I’d like to think that I was successful in doing so although I’m fully aware that I, like everyone else, exhibit an inherent level of confirmation bias – how much you choose to believe this influenced my stance is up to you.

For the purposes of this introduction, suffice to say that I reached my decision, I was happy with it then and I’m happy with it now.

Moving beyond the No vote, the referendum made me consider my general political outlook.  What do I want from government, what do I think it should do, how do I think decisions should be made, etc etc.  Most of my political “beliefs” are fairly simple: I’m pro-proportional representation and electoral reform, pro-union, pro-EU, pro-federalism(ish), pro-decentralisation, pro-free market, pro-equal marriage, pro-assisted dying.  I think government is there to assist people who need help the most and provide a level-playing field to enable social mobility.  I believe that the private sector spends money better than government but that it is in the public interest for some essential services to be run without a profit motive.  I believe in civil liberties, equality and the right to privacy.

I believe in all manner of things which everyone believes in: providing a world-class education for our children, a health service that’s available on the basis of need not the ability to pay, a stable society protected by well trained and well equipped armed forces and emergency services.  Basically, all the non-controversial platitudes that are rolled out by politicians to get some easy claps.

Considering all of that, it was an easy decision to join the Liberal Democrats. In fact, “decision” isn’t even the right word.  It was more of an inevitability.  Once I’d become politically active and reached the point where I wanted to join a party then there really wasn’t anywhere else that my loyalties were going to reside.  I don’t agree with everything the LibDems have ever done, I don’t even agree with everything that they currently stand for, and I’m happy to criticise or voice my disagreement.  But over the balance, I agree with the LibDem platform far more than I agree with anyone else’s.

Therefore at least some of this blog will be based on Liberal Democrat politics and what I hope to be a positive message of viable policies that people will find persuasive.  The rest will be my take on politics in general and will likely be criticisms of the Conservative government at Westminster and the SNP government at Holyrood.  I also plan to run a “meme-busting” section where I will upload copies of the more ridiculous Facebook / Twitter memes and “fact check” them.  I’m a sucker for statistics and have become increasingly frustrated with the dubious relationship many political claims have with reality, particularly from duplicitous nationalists trying to foster a manufactured sense of grievance.

I hope that anyone reading will find the blog interesting even if you vehemently disagree with me.  I would actively encourage thoughtful debate and will be more than happy to correct any factual errors you spot; but I have absolutely no time for unwarranted, personal attacks and will simply delete any abusive comments that are left.

Thanks for reading.

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67 thoughts on “About

  1. “Briefly then, I started off as a “soft” No vote: arriving at this decision from a standpoint of general apathy for politics; ignorance of many of the arguments from either side but a general, and somewhat irrational, dislike of Alex Salmond and the SNP; and a fervent, and absolutely rational, dislike of nationalism. ”

    So, what seems to be a dislike of two things that you clearly really do not understand brings you to want to be a no voter… Nationalism is one of these things that people THINK they understand but they really do not. Some think it is a showing of national pride and patriotism and others think you are a patriot if you are not a nationalist, but in essence, they are the same things. This stigmatisation of ‘nationalists’ and ‘nationalism’ is one of those ignorant or more softly ‘close minded’ (which you clearly have no time for yet have shown as being by stating that you dislike a man and an idealism without fully understanding them).

    I consider myself a nationalist, that doesn’t mean I hate the english or hate anyone, I don’t think I am better than anyone nor do I think that my nation is on a higher position than any others…. what I would say is that the kind of ‘nationalism’ that unionists dislike is one that they practice MORE than frequently. here are some my examples, maybe they sound familiar. Just go to any ‘unionist social networking page:

    Scotland cannot afford to be independent without the uk… this is saying the UK is ‘better’ than Scotland.
    The Nationalists are out to destroy scotland… A contempt for an ideology which people believe in.
    Nationalist (Scottish ones) have a belief and self determination in their country… whereas unionists trying to kill off a belief by undermining it with slurs of ‘cult’, ‘nazis’, ‘nationalists’ cybernats’, etc just to try and bring a level of bad publicity to the yes voters.
    Blaming a political party for ALL the division in Scotland even though independence was an idea long in the making before the SNP and division in Scotland was RIFE well before the referendum was even planned and blaming a party is just a dismissive way of shifting the blame from ones own bigotry.

    Sorry but you say you have a dislike for nationalism but nationalism is RIFE outwith the yes campaign and the SNP and more so obvious in the unionist corner and if you cannot see this then I am sorry, you ARE closed minded!

    So what I am trying to say is that it is EXTREMELY hypocritical for ANYONE to say what you have said in your self bio as this is your side of the argument.

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    1. Phenomenal strawmanning there, Lee. I particularly enjoy the assumption that I don’t like nationalism simply because I don’t understand it, that’s a beaut.

      You’ll have to point out to me where I’ve stated that I only dislike Scottish nationalism. Or where I’ve said that nationalism equals xenophobia, or anti-Englishness. Your assumptions here say more about you than me.

      Nationalism, to me, is the belief that the “we” should be based on an artificial border regardless of the outcome that occurs. Whether that be British nationalism, English nationalism, Scottish nationalism or Outer Mongolian nationalism I really don’t care. It is entirely illogical to me that people believe the franchise starts and ends with a definition of “we” along a line on a map; that it doesn’t matter what decisions are made and policies implemented so long as only “we” made them and that “we” is what the nationalist says it is and nothing else.

      This engenders belief in people that all it takes for things to get better is “belief in your country” and “self-determination” (so long as it’s not self-determination to maintain the union); which in turn implies that the only thing currently holding back the country is that someone else, some ‘other’ is preventing you from prospering. And so all things become the fault of ‘the other’. They’re doing it deliberately. Stealing our wealth. Holding us back. Now we see people who oppose nationalism don’t do so because of an honestly held belief or because they simply disagree with you – they only do so through fear, or self-interest, or ignorance, or a conflicting nationalism. Your nationalism is pure, it’s just based on self-belief and self-determination (but only the right kind), how can they not understand?! Why have they not seen the light?!

      I don’t believe Scotland can’t afford to be independent, I just believe Scotland is better off in the union. I don’t believe nationalists are out to destroy Scotland, I just think they value independence more than outcomes. I don’t blame the SNP for all division, I just blame them for propagating the grievance culture they think will achieve independence.

      I do so from a position of appraising the facts and considering what I think the best and most realistic outcomes are. If you find that “hypocritical” then I really can’t help you.

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      1. Was more of a sweeping generalisation than a personal assault, I do apologise for the misunderstanding.
        Scottish nationalism is one of the friendliest movements going, I have never seen such a good atmosphere at rallies so I really do not understand how you can dislike “rationally” nationalism. The “we” nationalism you speak of is the way the world is, sports events, governments, pride in your lands are all signs of “nationalism”.
        My examples were from my experiences of “unionism” which to me is nationalism of a deluded scale as. I invite you to any independence rally, see it for yourself, then you will understand the yes movement. The very things you say is the exact same on the “other side”, I have witnessed the “british” nationalism and believe me, it is not pleasant at all.
        “so long as it’s not self-determination to maintain the union” i could reverse that and say the same but if you do not believe in the union…

        Sorry if you had taken my initial comment out of context, was not directed at you, like I said, a generalisation on the situation in scotland. It is just abit sad that through this political awakening we have in scotland, it has turned into a full on, ALL party grievance culture. I will use the last FMPQ’s as an example, the snp tried to talk about plans while the rest of the parties talk about…. independence… makes ypu wonder what they are scared of…

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      2. I really don’t agree with the self-congratulatory belief that “Scottish nationalism is one of the friendliest movements going”. Undoubtedly there are elements of all nationalist groups, as with all ‘anything’ groups, which are unpleasant and to dismiss this unpleasantness as only belonging to the ‘other’ is delusional, I’m afraid.

        Yes there are lovely people within the nationalist groups but let’s not ignore the vitriol and anger that is often directed not just at individuals but institutions like the BBC; or the accusations that those who are pro-union (for whatever reason) are traitors and quislings, that they don’t have the nation’s best interests at heart, that they are only motivated by self-interest, that they are simply too feart, that they lack self-belief. This is not “joyous, civic nationalism”. Nor are they isolated incidents. I don’t know why nationalists feel the need to ignore, minimise or defend such incidents. I don’t feel any responsibility or association with the actions of fuckwits who happened to vote No just because I once agreed with them, albeit for completely different reasons. These people exist, they’ll always exist within any group.

        But even if they didn’t, I would still dislike nationalism because my dislike of it is not based on the lunatic fringe. I don’t like nationalism for the reasons I stated – it’s about achieving a franchise based on a narrow definition of “we” regardless of the outcomes and impact.

        As for FMQs, the SNP literally launched a self-titled “national conversation” on how to convince people on independence this week so let’s not pretend they’re never mentioning it. Of course the Tories lap it up and fire their own brand of nationalism back at Sturgeon which suits the pair of them – keeping the constitution as the sole focus of Scottish politics is just another of their shared interests.

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  2. Well until you have experienced the yes movement outside of the internet cesspool of attacking people behind social media profiles, I think you will find it extremely friendly and this is not a “self-congratulatory” friendliness, it is just fact. The thing with “nationalism” in scotland is that it comes mostly from a hatred of Catholics and has quite alot to do with religion in Ireland, with loyalist being protestants. This is why British nationalists hate being called nationalists. Again this is not directed at you personally but the hideous nature of the state of political play in Scotland at the moment.

    There is always a narrow definition of ‘we’ in life I am afraid, ‘we’ can mean alot more than petty borders, family, friend circle, house hold, street, community, UNION…

    The SNP launched an opinion to see what the scottish public think after the EU exit results in Scotland, which I actually like due to their interest in what the Scottish people think. You have got to remember that only a narrow lead brought the no vote whereas over 60% of scots voted for the EU. Yes, mentioning it is good but EVERY party and at every turn???? Really? If they thought about it for a second they would see that there are serious options ahead of scotland and it is the job of the government to ask the people of the country their opinion.

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    1. What makes you think I have not experienced it outside the internet? Again you’re assuming I only disagree because I don’t understand.

      And I think you’re confusing Scotland with the central belt, or rather the west coast and Glasgow when you’re assuming nationalism is only associated with the Irish influence. There’s undoubtedly an overlap for some, particularly in and around Glasgow, but it’s a bit simplistic to equate the two.

      As for the SNP’s “listening exercise”, let’s not kid ourselves. It’s a marketing trick to get data so they can target people for leafletting. And, to be frank, it shows exactly why I dislike nationalism. They’re simply searching for the most sellable version of independence to get the most votes – not to propose a vision that they believe is realistic and desireable and then try to convince persuade people to that belief. I wonder why nationalists who believed the faux-leftism of 2014 (despite the centre-right proposition) don’t start questioning their stance when the SNP are so clearly willing to offer any thing at all for independence.

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  3. The way you wite about nationalism makes me asume you haven’t, have you?

    I hate to break it to you but the central belt is where the majority of people live in Scotland and the ‘irish’ association is rife across Scotland, thankfully not getting up to Perth and beyond. The amount of times I’ve been called ‘irish’ (along with alot of other echoed names like ‘cultist’, ‘nazi’, etc) because of my belief that Scotland should be independent, is less than flattering of the ‘other side’.

    Now I think you are assuming here… the SNP’s listening exercise is exactly that, a listening exercise. They want to know the opinion of scotland and are asking the people direct, not relying on ever changing polls and ANYONE can take part in the poll, not just 100 random people in a street that may be pro indy or pro union. Trust me, target leafleting does not work, I like the lib dems and stand by some of their policies as they resonate with me but, the local lib dem MP candidate for my area was quite venomous and narrowminded in her leaflets. Even my partner who has been a lib dem voter for years now didn’t want to vote for her as she continued the same failed tactic of the ‘two horse race’ ‘we said no to the snp once already’ rubbish she or her leaflet writers spawned. Yes this is abit of an attack but it is also a critique on the way lib dems in my area resorted to slurs and hearsay to try and win a seat. thankfully, the winner did not need to do that in her leaflets and won.

    ‘ They’re simply searching for the most sellable version of independence to get the most votes – not to propose a vision that they believe is realistic and desirable and then try to convince persuade people to that belief.’ – Is this not what every political party does? I mean this is canvassing in the 21st century, selling their policies?

    The fact that you are in a party makes the ‘we’ and ‘them’ argument you have a little less credible, Politics is about ‘us’ and ‘them’. So I am still not buying into your understanding of nationalism because I still think it is rather jaded. Not much difference in us other than I want independence and you want dependence yet you dislike that I am under the label of nationalism…

    Thanks

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    1. Your assumption is basically that because I disagree with you that I haven’t had the “correct” experiences. This is, dare I say, fairly typical of nationalism. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that my experience is just different than yours?

      As for “us and them”, I fear you’re simply subscribing to identity politics. I am a member of a party because I enjoy being active in politics and the LibDems most closely match my own belief in how outcomes can and should be achieved. It is not part of my identity and I don’t agree with everything every LibDem has ever said or done, nor feel responsible or associated with everything ever LibDem has ever said or done.

      Incidentally, I can’t stand those “two horse race” graphs on the leaflets, they’re bloody horrendous and I say so at every meeting we have.

      But yes, this is nothing more than a marketing campaign from the SNP and no, I don’t think every party does this. Parties typically stand for something – free market economics, worker solidarity, civil liberties, etc. The SNP stand for independence. Nothing else. And they’ll wear whatever clothes they think are necessary to achieve that goal. That’s why I find it odd that people who aren’t “just in it for the indy” continue to support them even when it is apparent that they have no interest in socialist policies, for example, and clearly foresee no realistic proposition of a socialist independence.

      Anyway, it kind of feels like we’re going round in circles here…

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  4. ‘Your assumption is basically that because I disagree with you that I haven’t had the “correct” experiences. This is, dare I say, fairly typical of nationalism. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that my experience is just different than yours?’

    So, have you experienced the yes movement? You kind of dodged that question so all I can do is assume… and no, it is not typical of ‘nationalism’ this is typical of anyone’s perception, like me saying that I hate disney land while never having visited the place, I just hate the idea of it… I am not accepting that you had a different experience, I’m just sceptical because you haven’t actually said whether you have experienced it…

    Identity politics… POLITICS IS IDENTITY… you vote for the party that resonates with your beliefs on how the country should be run… surely you should know this because you have clearly chosen a party? Nationalists don’t feel that way about the SNP but nationalist know that in order to get independence that they will get no where voting for a party that doesn’t have scottish independence in their policies. Would you support the SNP, even if they 99% resonated with you over all other parties bar one subject?

    ‘Incidentally, I can’t stand those “two horse race” graphs on the leaflets, they’re bloody horrendous and I say so at every meeting we have.’ – Yes I completely agree, when I first read them it had grievance written all over them. Hopefully the Lib dems change their strategy for next time as they locked out a big percentage of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshires electorate, god knows if the same tactic was used elsewhere in Scotland.

    ‘But yes, this is nothing more than a marketing campaign from the SNP and no, I don’t think every party does this. Parties typically stand for something – free market economics, worker solidarity, civil liberties, etc. The SNP stand for independence. Nothing else. And they’ll wear whatever clothes they think are necessary to achieve that goal. That’s why I find it odd that people who aren’t “just in it for the indy” continue to support them even when it is apparent that they have no interest in socialist policies, for example, and clearly foresee no realistic proposition of a socialist independence.’ – To say that the SNP are solely running off independence is silly, come on man… They were campaigning side by side with you guys over the EU, they campaigned against the bedroom tax, trident renewal, fair pensions for women, not to go to war in Iraq, bomb syria, etc… That is like me saying that after the FMQ’s on that all the other parties think about is referendums… EVERY political party looks for information, without it they cannot make their policies count for anything, this is ALL the SNP are doing. A big question is being asked now, EU or UK? Are you not interested in what the opinion of the Scottish people is on this question? remembering that only 55% voted for the UK whereas 62% voted for the EU with a majority of SNP and yes voters voting for brexit or ‘british nationalism’.

    I don’t think we are going round in circles, to be honest I have really enjoyed talking with you, it is always good when two people can talk online without abuse these days.

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    1. To be clear, yes of course I have experienced the “yes movement” outside the confines of the internet.

      I disagree that politics is identity. Completely disagree. Being a member of the LibDems is not part of my identity, it doesn’t define me. I certainly don’t consider other LibDems to be an “us” that excludes people who are not party members.

      And honestly, I cannot stress to you how naive I think it is to consider the SNP as anything other than a one-policy party. Yes, they of course involve themselves in other areas of politics but this is entirely and completely secondary to the “cause” of independence. Everything is seen through the prism of independence and what impact that policy will have on achieving it. I know that many SNP voters disagree with this but that’s the way I see it. The stances they take on other policies are purely and simply a means of trying to attract people to their sole aim.

      You ask if I’d support the SNP if they resonated with me “99% bar one policy”… I’m not sure. If the LibDem position changed to be pro-independence whilst I was still pro-union then I’d definitely still vote LibDem but the SNP are *only* about independence so I’m not so sure if I’m honest.

      As for being locked out by the electorate, sadly Scotland is now dominated by constitutional politics with SNP nationalism on one side and Tory nationalism on the other. I fear it may be some time until that is no longer the case.

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  5. So how was it? My girlfriend, solid no voter, loved the yes movement, the people, the positivity, the music, the singing and laughter, still voted no for her own reasons. I suppose everyone can have a ‘bad trip’ like my own with the No voting side of the night of the 19th of september 2014, a sad time when the mask of the no campaign really fell off in dramatic style.

    Being a member of a party is completely an identity thing, of course it is, why on earth would you join a party if it wasn’t personal, doesn’t mean it defines you, but joining a party is totally personal compared to just voting for one… not only are you investing money with the subscription but you are also invited to give your input, vote on candidates and attend meetings, totally about identity as you identify yourself with the Lib Dems more so than the tories, or the Greens. I would never join a club or organisation that wasn’t dear to me or that I didn’t feel passionate about. My opinion of course.

    SNP party manifesto; http://www.snp.org/manifesto

    You could say that the Lib Dems, Tories, Labour had the exact same deal going into the 2014 and 2016 referendums, backing the union as being a sole interest in the unions… I mean, come on, it has been no secret that the SNP back scottish independence, they aren’t pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes there but they are also running the country with a minority, then a majority and again through a minority government this time around… the ONLY reason Labour have done so badly and the tories have done so well was due to the referendum… staunch unionists voted for the only unionist party, with is the conservative and unionist party… are they a one policy-party? Lets not kid ourselves that the SNP actually got more votes this year also, with help from the under 18’s, of course AND lets not kid ourselves that if the Scottish voting system was the same as the UK system, we would have a majority SNP government, a quite substantial majority too, all the more reason for this listening exercise. It is the way you see it which is assuming of course. If that last paragraph sounded abit aggressive in nature, please do not take it in that way as I did not mean it to sound that way, I hate context sometimes but I am on nightshift and I only have a little time to reply so my fingers are going faster than my brain so to speak.

    For me, I have voted for also every party, according to my own age, naivety, circumstances at that time and ‘social standing’. I was incredibly impressed by Nick Clegg and voted for him, was a shining light.

    The thing I fear about your last statement is that Sturgeon and Ruth seem to get on… a little too well for opposing parties.

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    1. Like anything, there were positives and negatives. Anything which tries to bring people together as a collective will also have a unifying effect for some and an exclusionary effect for some. I found the premise to be rather naive and at times sanctimonious and I never felt that “positivity”, whether real or artificial, was an argument against reality.

      Afraid I have to disagree on the party membership thing. It’s not about identity for me. It’s about the best way to achieve outcomes which I believe in and seeking ways to convince other people that those outcomes are worthwhile and desirable.

      And yes, I believe the Tories were a one-policy party at the last election. It was a one-policy election for many people, sadly. For me, the Tories back the union because that’s (supposedly) a fundamental belief for them, regardless of outcomes – they certainly stood in May on a ticket of “vote for us if you’re pro-union, ignore everything else”. The SNP back independence because it’s their fundamental belief, regardless of outcomes. Labour, LibDems, Greens et al reach a position on the constitutional question based on which eventuality will facilitate the outcomes they desire – the constitution is not an outcome in itself to anyone except nationalists. That’s what I see as the crucial difference between them all.

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    2. Also “mask off the no campaign” is really very insulting. The arseholes in George Square has nothing to do with the no campaign or anything other than absolute fuckwittery. I find it incredibly distasteful that people attempt to associate political stances, parties or campaigns with the actions of some absolute cretins who have failed to evolve. I would never and have never done the same in reverse, I find it very frustrating when people on either side of this recent binary divide in Scotland seek to do what they’ve done with other older binary divides that exist in some areas.

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  6. Never the Twains shall meet I guess.

    Well the arseholes on george square that night were representing the no campaign, like the nationalists who made your experience of nationalism so bad…

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  7. All forms of nationalism involve ‘othering’. There’s ‘us’ and there’s ‘them’.

    In the dying days of the indyref campaign, Salmond declared that me and my No-voting ilk were not Scottish (remember his jocular line “it’s Team Scotland versus Team Westminster!”).

    Our previous Makar Liz Lochhead said last summer that there “weren’t enough Scots” working in Scottish theatre.

    And just last week, I watched how Mike Small, editor of Bella Caledonia, became exasperated that others struggled to categorise people they knew living and working in Scotland as either Scottish or English. https://twitter.com/BraidenHT/status/782879797995302912

    Why on earth does it matter? Because this is what nationalism does.

    Orwell was right: http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

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    1. LOL, You and your ‘ilk’ was never the words used and him saying ‘team scotland against team westminster’ was a comment regarding people who couldn’t see a country’s prosperity over a government’s! You TOTALLY misunderstand the context in his comment or its meaning! Never once did he even hint that you weren’t scottish!

      Not enough scots working is scotish theatre… ANOTHER misunderstanding, what you are seeing is delusion of your bitterness of anything scottish…

      Bella… ANOTHER misunderstanding you have picked up on! Seems you are quite willing to have scottish people spoken down to but DARE speak about your masters then it is all go!!!

      Yes Orwell was right, you are TOTALLY under the government’s control!!!

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      1. Disagree with the first bit. Salmond’s “join Team Scotland” bollocks was very much an attempt to insinuate that those who were backing no and voting no were not doing so in “Scotland’s best interests” but rather “Westminster’s best interests”. That was very obvious. The man is a cretin of the highest order, by the way.

        And Mike Small (who runs that Bella account) is also very much a blood-and-soil nationalist who has reached his conclusion on the basis of fundamental nationalist ideology and tries to mould the arguments to suit.

        I didn’t follow the whole Scottish theatre debate very closely (because frankly I couldn’t care less) but from what I saw there was a clear insinuation that it should be Scots involved and a resentment that non-Scots were getting the role who, supposedly, wouldn’t understand Scots culture and instead usurp it with their English culture. That could just be picking up the lunatic fringe end of the story from twitter, though.

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  8. Fraser I enjoyed reading your “About” section and much rang true with me, I found a couple of sad quotes for example “ignorance of many of the arguments from either side but a general, and somewhat irrational, dislike of Alex Salmond and the SNP; and a fervent, and absolutely rational, dislike of nationalism”

    Just this alone swayed your outlook. 140 Countries have left Westminster Rule, all had political parties at the helm, none of those Countries are governed today by the same political party. Independence has nothing to do with an individual or a political party. Independence is considered normal around the globe. Countries leave Westminster Rule I have never heard of a Country asking them to rule over them.

    You say you hate nationalism, but no doubt accept English nationalism dictating your Countries future…BREXIT

    Your Quote “I also plan to run a “meme-busting” section where I will upload copies of the more ridiculous Facebook / Twitter memes and “fact check” them”

    You only do it the one way though, have you seen the crap and lying memes from NO forums? United against Separation excel above the best…

    When I first heard about this referendum I was horrified at the thought of breaking up this 300 year old Union, I run a successful business exporting/importing goods around the globe, so I have done alright whilst being in this Union, but I have 3 daughters and before letting them simply have an easy time coming into my business I wanted them to experience work elsewhere, wow did my eyes get opened, Scotland’s infrastructure has been destroyed, nothing but crap jobs on zero hour contracts with no rights and the minimum wage. So I decided to look into things, I joined the Better Together and YES forums to ask questions, at first I genuinely thought I was having Facebook problems as I couldn’t comment on the BT pages after asking a question, it took me my partners name my daughters name and my business name before it dawned on me they were banning me. So I started from the same position as you, but without the hatred of individuals or a political party, I had no ulterior motives I simply wanted the best outcome for my family..

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    1. Decide for yourself how much you think my dislike of Salmond swayed my opinion. I tried to be fair to both sides and assess the arguments.

      I find it very hard to believe that you would be blocked for asking polite questions but there you go.

      And *everyone* who voted in the referendum did so for the best outcome for their family. Except the hardcore nationalists on both sides who just like flags, obviously.

      “Countries leave Westminster Rule I have never heard of a Country asking them to rule over them”. Well I don’t consider it “Westminster Rule”, rather obviously, and I don’t consider that we have “another country” ruling over us. Each vote in the UK is equal, each MP’s vote is equal. That’s how countries work. Don’t know why I should be happy to be over-ruled by central belt MP’s but not Yorkshire MP’s because someone else thinks a line across an island dictates where the franchise should start and end.

      “You say you hate nationalism, but no doubt accept English nationalism dictating your Countries future…BREXIT”. I voted against it, campaigned against it, continue to back attempts to minimise its damage. But I’d have to have accepted your nationalism making my family poorer in 2014 had yes won and I’ll have to accept the democratic majority. And given over a million people in Scotland voted Leave, it’s rather conveniently pejorative of you (and revealing of your intent and bias) that you characterise it as “English nationalism”, though no doubt there was an unhealthy slab of that involved.

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  9. Your Quote “Decide for yourself how much you think my dislike of Salmond swayed my opinion. I tried to be fair to both sides and assess the arguments”

    Only you will know that but going by the rest of your reply I guess quite a lot, in fact I believe your decision was made at the beginning and has never shifted. I will explain why I come to this conclusion as I go on.

    Your Quote “I find it very hard to believe that you would be blocked for asking polite questions but there you go”

    You can’t be serious, Vote NO forums were famous for banning the opposition, so much so a forum that ended up and still exists with 1000s of members all banned (Silenced by Better Together) don’t take my word just take a look at any of them, you will see them all talking to themselves as anyone that questions them is banned instantly. Then have a look at YES forums and the SNP one and you will see 100s of Unionists, none are banned. You would think if they had the best argument there would be no need for this tactic.

    Your Quote “And *everyone* who voted in the referendum did so for the best outcome for their family. Except the hardcore nationalists on both sides who just like flags, obviously”

    That only works if the public were given a balanced media. If interested you should watch this…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw&t=2886s

    I have a question for you. We all know that YES voters during the referendum organised 100s of rallies, events and marches where 1000s gathered in one area, not ONE arrest in 2 years, even the police had to tell Better Together off for scaremongering about YES voters, however we now know that since the referendum 18 individual court cases and all of them turned out to be NO voters bar one, (links can be provided).

    My question is why didn’t we hear about those crimes during the referendum, they include an 80 year old man getting his wrist broken for holding up a YES placard and a pregnant woman being kicked in the stomach, didn’t the BBC/STV and SKY deem those crimes important enough? after all we got 4 days TV coverage of an egg being thrown at Jim Murphy. All I heard during the referendum was YES voters were Nazis, Cybernats, Vile, Aggressive and much more, they even reported a YES sticker being stuck on the door of a Labour MPs office and called it vandalism…

    Would you agree this was an attempt to make YES voters look like the bad side of society and this is a form of brain washing….I have numerous other examples..

    Your Quote “Well I don’t consider it “Westminster Rule”, rather obviously, and I don’t consider that we have “another country” ruling over us. Each vote in the UK is equal, each MP’s vote is equal. That’s how countries work. Don’t know why I should be happy to be over-ruled by central belt MP’s but not Yorkshire MP’s because someone else thinks a line across an island dictates where the franchise should start and end”

    Yet you claim to have given both sides of the Indy debate an equal chance, but go on to admit you don’t believe Scotland is any more than Yorkshire. How on earth you can say you started off unbiased when you don’t believe Scotland is a Country is beyond me. If Westminster doesn’t rule who does the Russian Kremlin perhaps LOL

    Your Quote ” Brexit I voted against it, campaigned against it, continue to back attempts to minimise its damage. But I’d have to have accepted your nationalism making my family poorer in 2014 had yes won”

    You have zero evidence that Scotland would become poorer, all you have is what’s fed to you from the state run media. However your response is typical of the British, as said before suppression of nations is in your genes…

    It is only here in Scotland that we pirouette on the head of a pin over patriotism and nationalism. Who else have you ever met who boasted:

    “I love my Country but don’t want it to govern itself, I much prefer it to be in a minority in another parliament where it can always be outvoted and where parties we don’t support will dictate our budget and policies. I don’t think my country should have independence because it really wouldn’t be able to do the job properly”

    Most foreign listeners would reply: Then it’s not your Country at all. You can’t care enough about it to call it your Nation. You may call yourself Scottish but you are in fact British. Britain is your Country.

    The problem is Britain is not a Country it’s a geographical location, therefore you have never looked into what was best for Scotland…

    Your Quote “And given over a million people in Scotland voted Leave”

    62% of Scotland voted remain, your over a million is completely irrelevant.

    Your Quote “pejorative of you (and revealing of your intent and bias) that you characterise it as “English nationalism”, though no doubt there was an unhealthy slab of that involved”

    Let’s get this straight and this proves how wrong and brain washed you have become. Scotland is a Country, England is a Country, Britain a geographic location and the UK no more than a political construct. If you require more proof of this just ask, but really we have already had a referendum on Independence and will do again, do you believe the same could happen for Yorkshire? NO the reason is simple Scotland is a Country within the UK you have just given up your Identity for the British one, no one can be born British.

    The Facts are England make up 85% of the UK population and that 85% determine everything, just because I believe in the truth that Scotland is a Country doesn’t make me anti English.

    I can name half a dozen benefits that all on this Island would gain if Scotland went Independent, I can’t think of one benefit the NO vote achieved for anyone. Well apart from keeping a title that the flag wavers believe is worth more than life itself…

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    1. I’ve been banned (or rather hidden) from pages like Business for Scotland, the idea that pro-union sites are horrendous censorers whilst anti-union sites welcome open and honest debate is just moronic.

      Honestly, do you not see reflections of the Brexit nonsense and Trump supporters in the media paranoia? It just puts people off, you know. And no, I don’t agree there was a conspiracy to make yes voters / campaigners look bad.

      “Yet you claim to have given both sides of the Indy debate an equal chance, but go on to admit you don’t believe Scotland is any more than Yorkshire. How on earth you can say you started off unbiased when you don’t believe Scotland is a Country is beyond me.” This is kind of the crux of your problem. You’re developing a strawman based on an argument that doesn’t hold any sway with me.

      I don’t really care if anyone thinks Scotland is a country or not. It would make absolutely zero difference to my decision making process if I didn’t think Scotland or the UK was a country. It’s just not a relevant point for me. Only nationalists think that a country should be a state regardless of the outcomes. Everyone else looks at the two options available, assesses the facts and makes the choice based on the outcomes they think most likely to be best for their family and them.

      And then you wade into shite like this:

      “You have zero evidence that Scotland would become poorer, all you have is what’s fed to you from the state run media. However your response is typical of the British, as said before suppression of nations is in your genes…”

      1 – I assess the facts for myself. Take a look at this blog for examples

      2 – don’t stereotype based on your own bias

      3 – “suppression of nations is in your genes”. Do fuck off. Have you any idea how utterly delusional this sort of bollocks is? Is this the civic and joyous nationalism the yes campaign self-congratulated itself over endlessly? By your own logic of nationalism, our genes are the same. Because i have reached a different conclusion over one constitutional question you want to label me with some ignorant moral inferiority you’ve dreamt up? Seriously, any more of this bollocks and I’ll just block you from here. It’s pathetic.

      “Then it’s not your Country at all. You can’t care enough about it to call it your Nation. You may call yourself Scottish but you are in fact British. Britain is your Country…

      NO the reason is simple Scotland is a Country within the UK you have just given up your Identity for the British one, no one can be born British.”

      You’re just espousing pathetic Nationalism 101.

      I am Scottish. I am British. You are Scottish. You are British. These are just facts. But they are not “my identity”.

      Scottish and British are just adjectives. They’re not definitions. Only nationalists define themselves by the accident of their birth or, even worse, the political conclusion that they have reached.

      Voting for union doesn’t remove the fact that I’m Scottish any more than voting for independence would remove the fact I’m Aberdonian. That you can’t understand this means you’ll just rabbit on and on about identity politics when people have long ago stopped listening. Those for whom nationality = identity will never, ever change their mind.

      I don’t care that England makes up 85% of the population of the UK because I don’t see “England” as one homogenous bloc that votes en masse in one way any more than I see “Scotland” as the homogenous bloc the SNP would like to pretend it is. Every individual across the franchise has an equal vote, every MP across the franchise has an equal vote. That’s fine by me.

      Like

  10. Nope I simply believe Scotland, lets call it a region of the UK to keep you happy could do a lot better at running her own affairs and if DevoMax was on the ballot paper that’s the option I would have chosen. However greedy little Westminster didn’t want that option as they knew it would have won by a landslide. They preferred a NO victory so they could carry on regardless. The elite establishment love you guys as there is not an atrocity they could commit they will always have their loyal subjects. I don’t care who lives in Scotland, I don’t care where they come from or what colour they are, in fact I want more as we need them to help with the aging population. The top 5 least corrupt Countries in the world are all small with populations the same as Scotland, that’s a goal in my eyes. Nothing will be achieved under Westminster rule, if Scotland went Independent and became a fairer society that would be seen in England. I believe they would demand a parliament in the North, Westminster would be weakened and benefits would be seen all around. But as long as the establishment have you guys nothing will improve for anyone, in fact it’s just getting worse.

    Let’s be honest, you started of from a hatred towards an individual and the SNP now why was that, where did this hatred come from, you being such an open minded person?

    It’s wasn’t the SNP that privatised Oil and Gas
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that privatised British Telecom
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that sold off Power Generation
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that sold off the Railways
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that shut down the Coal Industry
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that smashed the Trade Unions
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that sold off the Steel Industry
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that depleted the Housing Stock
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that charge for further Education
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that sold of the Gold Reserves
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that didn’t regulate the Banks
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that’s trying to privatise the NHS
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that’s depleting the Armed Forces
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that raided the Pensions
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that took us in to an illegal War
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that is taking us from the largest trading block in the world

    The list goes on.

    It’s wasn’t the SNP that privatised Britoil
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that privatised Jaguar
    It’s wasn’t the SNP that privatised British Airways, Rolls-Royce, British Gas and so on and on.

    So what made you hate the SNP, the only logical conclusion can be 1 of 2 things. media brainwashing or you are British.

    In an Independent Scotland I would vote for the political party with the best manifesto, however I believe the SNP with their hands tied have done not to bad, just this year alone they have achieved…

    Health spending in Scotland reached a record £13 billion in 2016. And we’ve committed an additional £304 million in resource funding for our NHS – a record.

    Investment committed to the Attainment Scotland Fund has risen to £750 million over five years, putting targeted resources to raise attainment in schools where it is needed most.

    £100 million of government spending on infrastructure has been brought forward, as part of a package of measures to stimulate Scotland’s economy following the result of the EU referendum.

    90 per cent of patients rated their NHS care and treatment as good or excellent, the highest rating since the inpatient survey began in 2010.

    Recorded crime is at a 42-year low, new figures released in September showed.

    The number of registered businesses in Scotland has reached 173,995 in 2016, the highest number on record.

    Scotland’s biggest project – the Queensferry Crossing – is now 94 per cent complete and is on schedule to open in May next year.

    We’ve exceeded our world-leading target of reducing emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 – six years early. And work is underway to introduce tougher targets for future years.

    Renewable sources delivered the equivalent of 59.4 per cent of Scotland’s gross electricity consumption in 2015 – exceeding the 2015 50 per cent renewable electricity target.

    83 per cent of properties in Scotland now able to get superfast broadband, up from 73 per cent in 2015. This is the greatest increase in superfast coverage of all the UK’s nations.

    504,980 vulnerable households in Scotland – including around 190,000 pensioners and over 80,000 single parents – have been protected from UK Government cuts to Council Tax benefit.

    New figures showed that in 2015 97,000 fewer households were living in fuel poverty compared with 2017.

    NHS staffing reached a new record high – with 11,500 more whole time equivalent staff under the SNP.

    Figures published in November showed 83 per cent of primary school children have signed up to participate in the First Minister’s Reading Challenge.

    The gender pay gap in Scotland decreased from 7.7 per cent in 2015 to 6.2 per cent in 2016. Across the UK as a whole the gender pay gap decreased 0.2 percentage points to 9.4 per cent.

    Scotland’s A&E performance has been the best in the UK for 20 months.

    From April 2013 to June 2016 217,000 low income households in crisis have been helped to buy essentials such as nappies, food and cookers through our Scottish Welfare Fund.

    In September 2016 the Times Higher Education world university rankings showed that five of Scotland’s universities were ranked in the global top 200. On a per head basis, that’s more than any other country except Luxembourg.

    500,000 acres of land are now in community ownership.

    This year 152,701 Higher passes, only the second time the number of passes has exceeded 150,000.

    The Scottish Government announced that over the next five years 1,000 new paramedics will be trained.

    Scotland was rated the number one country in Europe for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex (LGBTI) equality and human rights for the second year in a row.

    For starting 2017 Scotland looks set to be the first part of the UK to pilot a basic income for every citizen.

    Now I understand that could mean nothing to you, but I still don’t understand why you dislike them so much, you faith lies with an establishment that fails in everything it touches.

    The UK has the highest childcare costs in the world.
    The UK has the highest level of obesity in Western Europe.
    The UK has the second-largest debt (per capita) in the world.
    The UK is the most expensive place in the world to run a car.
    The UK has the most expensive energy costs in Europe.
    The UK has been named the most corrupt country in the world.
    The UK is home to the largest concentration of nuclear weapons in Europe.
    Scotland, as a part of the UK, has the largest structural deficit in Europe.
    Scotland, as a part of the UK, has the greatest concentration of land ownership in the world.
    Scotland, as a part of the UK, has the largest PFI bill (per capita) in the world.
    Job satisfaction levels in the UK as the fourth poorest in the developed world.
    The UK is home to the highest aviation tax in the world.
    The UK has the longest detention period in the world where an individual can be held without charge for 28 days – 16 days longer than Australia, second on the list.
    The UK government is under investigation by the United Nations for breaches of Human Rights.
    The UK is under investigation for the selling of arms to Saudi Arabia.
    The UK is the sixth most unequal country in the world.
    Inequality in the UK has grown faster than any other country since 1970.
    The UK has earned the title of “worst place to live in Europe” following a study which assessed “quality of life” – and came second-last in the previous year.
    The UK has the highest fuel taxes in Europe.
    In the last six years, the UK has sold weapons to 24 of the 27 states included on its own list of “countries of humanitarian concern”.
    Wages in the UK have fallen by 10.4% since 2007 – a performance matched only by poverty-stricken Greece.
    The UK is the fourth most undemocratic country in the developed world.
    The UK has the second-largest unelected chamber in the world.
    The UK has the second-lowest number of female judges in Europe (right behind Azerbaijan).
    Britons have 5.5 fewer work holidays a year than the European average.
    The UK has the second-longest working hours in Europe.
    The UK provides the second-lowest state pension in the OECD (with only Mexico offering its citizens less).
    The UK has the third highest level of inequality in the developed world.
    The number of zero-hours contracts in the UK has skyrocketed by 21% compared to last year.
    House building in the UK is the lowest since 1923.
    The UK’s military capacity has been reduced to its lowest level since the Napoleonic wars.
    The UK government have resided over more deaths of disabled citizens than the Nazis.
    UK homes have the smallest living space in Europe.
    The UK is the third “most warmongering” country in the world.
    The UK, with more CCTV cameras (per head of population) than anywhere else, is the most watched country in the world.
    In the UK, more than half of new businesses collapse with the UK tax system, a lack of bank lending and the cost of running a business all cited as reasons for failure.
    The UK has one of the most complicated tax system in the world with 10,042 pages of legislation (as of 2010) and an additional 500 pages of new tax law are created each year – this also makes administration far less cost-effective with the Institute of Economic Affairs concluding that the annual operating costs of the British tax system were more than £11bn in 2012.
    House prices in Britain are around 30pc too high, according to a study published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation & Development.
    The UK has the most expensive rents in Europe (£350 P/M more than the EU average).
    Female mortality rates in the UK are the second poorest in Western Europe.
    The UK has the second largest involvement in the tax haven of Panama.
    Property tax in the UK is the most complex in the world.

    BTW please don’t call me British I don’t want associated with that title. Its also not true..

    GB = Scotland, England & Wales
    UK = GB + NI

    “Britain” refers to England and Wales. “Great Britain” takes in Scotland. So it would seem that “British” should refer to a resident of the former, but not the latter, and that we would need a different term “Great British” to refer to, say, someone who lives in Inverness. Yet in common conversation Americans consistently get this confused and even many people in the UK, especially in England, gloss over it.

    So technically the Scots are not British and many people in Scotland (even ones who are not SNP members) bristle at being called “British” but in common usage “British” gets used as if it means “UK-ish” (e.g., British passport, British Army).

    The UK – a state that includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Great Britain – an island situated off the north west coast of Europe.
    British Isles – a collection of over 6,000 islands, of which Great Britain is the largest.
    Scotland/England – countries within the UK.

    Britain is not a Country, Britain is the name given to the structures of power, privilege and patronage which serve and sustain the ruling elites of the British state.

    http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

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  11. “Base nationalism”… notice how standing up for your country and the rest of the uk is “nationalism”… always with the nationalism!

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    1. Seriously, read his pejorative snark. It’s based in nothing but nationalism. Pointing that out is perfectly fair.

      As for the sprawling list of various misinformed gripes, give me a fucking break. I’ve responded to his drivel many times and all he’s done is copied-and-pasted another list of nonsense. Even just picking a couple at random, it’s easy to pick this nonsense apart – UK doesn’t have the highest energy costs in Europe (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers,_second_half_2015_(%C2%B9)_(EUR_per_kWh)_YB16.png); Scotland doesn’t have a better gender pay gap than rUK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37162985). I’m not going to waste my time going through a list of “UK bad” bollocks so he can ignore it anyway. He is a fundamentalist. Nothing will ever change his mind.

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  12. Do you not think that your mind will not change either? I mean you have a website which commits you to your own fundamentalist ways. For one that bbc link is an analysis of 60 thousand people in a union of 60million…plus emphasis on scotland only. I wil have a proper looknat the rest of the members of the uk when I get a chance.
    Energy prices, we are on BASIC PRICE the highest in europe, so he isn’t lying there at all but we are still overall in the high rates with bailout countries italy, ireland portugal and spain.
    Do you have a scotland good list or a scotland bad outside the uk or even an indy scotland good list?

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    1. Yes, of course I could change my mind. If I felt independence was best for my family, my community, my job, etc then I’d of course vote for it. I am not a fundamentalist. This blog provides the factual basis on which I am making my current choice.

      And no, of course I don’t have copy-and-paste lists.

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  13. I am not asking for a copy and paste list.

    I fundamental points cannot be disregarded and by calling someone a fundamentalist is just another deflective and extremely derogatory way of saying that your beliefs are more worthy of people’s time than someone else’s.

    I work on the bigger picture, anyone can throw figures around and manipulate these figures to suit their agenda, accountants have been doing it for hundreds of years. Strip everythijg back to basics and look at the evidence around the numbers, for example my theory on scotland’s economy:

    Much like the eu referendum, the value of the pound FELL because the last poll showed yes in the lead… ONLY after the vote was no, the value went back up. The value of a currency relates to a country’s economic muscle and currency in circulation. The eu ref, the exact thing happened, the pound CRASHED and is still applauded when it recovered by a penny!

    So going by the value of the pound, the fact UK politicians BEGGED scotland to stay, the fact that england is the ONLY country to NOT publish independent revenue and expenditure figures even though it used to AND scotland has over 1.5TRILLION pounds worth of assets (Mark Carney, governor of the bank of england said it). This is looking beyond the number, to the markets, the human behaviours… another example is that if a friend owes you money that you need back but he keeps pleeding poverty, even though he can present you with evidence of hik now having money to pay you back, doesnt mean he doewnt have it and you look at the way he is acting, managing himself etc.

    You use terms like nationalist and fundamentalist alot… all these “ist” words that people quickly associate with the old fashioned terminology of them. This tactic is very well known in the political world, we are ALL different man, labelling someone is judgemental and I’ll bet you hate being judged and labelled.

    The thing is you don’t know independence, so your choice for your community, family, job, was really just going for what you know over change.

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    1. So you’re guessing Scotland would be super rich as an independent country because rUK didn’t say “off you fuck then”? Really? If Orkney and Shetland had a referendum to leave an independent Scotland, would you want them to go or stay?

      I have no doubt that Scottish independence would also be bad for the rest of the UK. It’s a mutually beneficial union, after all, so the pound dropping pre-ref really wasn’t a surprise. I really don’t get the whole “haha independence would be bad for England so it must be great for us”. rUK is, after all, far and away Scotland’s most important market, where’s the sense in hoping to harm that market? It’s like Brexiters thinking it’s great that Brexit damages the EU. Just bizarre.

      It’s not a zero-sum game. Because someone loses doesn’t automatically mean someone else wins. Everyone would lose.

      And yes, I like to call nationalists nationalist. Because it gets to the point very quickly. It isn’t that my ” beliefs are more worthy of people’s time than someone else’s”, it’s that nationalists don’t care about outcomes, so debate and facts are only sought to reinforce a pre-held belief, not shape an opinion. If people think that’s derogatory then hey-ho.

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  14. Never once stated that but what has been stated is that scotland wouldnt be any worse off but at the same time have 100% control over its affairs. Also, if Orkney and shetland did break away from scotland then that would be their choice, we need to realise that orkney and shetland were basically gifted to scotland from the Norwegians.

    All I am saying is that when the uk had to use fear to keep us, that is when alarm bells must start ringing.. through the whole term I heard negatives, scotland can’t, oh but if you stay you’ll get a 200billion oil cash bonanza etc… blackmail and fear, that is wanting scotland to stay, that’s NEEDING THEM TO STAY!

    There is no semse in going out to harm a market, nobody wanted to harm a market but over 1.6 million people in scotland alone think westminster is NOT serving its people and I know for a fact that the reality is it is at least twice that figure who think this but where blackmailed and basically threatened, lets not dance around it. Like I said, nobody hinted at going out to ruin any thing, make things better though…

    Exactly, someone elses losses doesnt mean someone elses win, this is the argument that I tried to put to that chokkablogg fella but his stance was, whatever revenue is left is england’s… that is nonsense even coming from a business man too.

    If nationalists didnt care about the outcome… then why vote??? Seriously man, pigeon holing doesnt work! So a nationalist is a positive, prosperous person who wants the best for their country and away from a corrupt government… when ypu start throwing names like that around, it make me believe george orwell more and more… government before country!

    So you are a nationalist then because you believe what you believe… again I will point to the branches of nationalism and the one one that points to scottish nationalism is civic nationalism but you can only be civil for so long when people constantly bash your country.

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    1. Of course Scotland would be worse off. We’d lose the current £8bn+ fiscal transfer for a start.

      And I asked whether *you’d* want Orkney and Shetland to stay, not whether you’d accept it if they left.

      And better together went with the negative campaigning because it was deemed to be the most effective way to win. And it did win. I’d have preferred more positivity which we got some of towards the end but there you go.

      And, for clarity, I’m not saying every yes voter is a nationalist. I’ve never said that. I’m saying people like Rodric above who believe it’s only about “democracy” and that “democracy” = the franchise along national borders come what may… These people are, obviously, nationalists. Other people base their vote, for yes or no, on whether they think the outcomes are likely to be better with each eventuality.

      And, for the millionth time, I’m not “bashing your country” because I disagree with your political stance. Seriously, can we avoid the Salmond strawmen? Sadly, just like the ‘man’ himself, they seem to stick around like a foul stench

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  15. Oh and of course it is derogatory, nationalists from other areas have taken up arms, created malitias, guerrilla gangs, etc… not one scottish “nationalist” has done this.. so to use your understanding of the word “nationalist” IS derogatory to a grouo of people who just want away from a corrupt uk government!!!

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  16. Shetland and orkney… course not, they are assets to scotland and have a wealth of resources around the islands so…..

    Effective… yes and instead of brining a positive case forward it was doom and gloom, exactly what the people want. Negative campiagn because yes simply blows them out the water with positive responses!

    Funny, I’m not getting that from rodric’s comments, he is putting a case across, really fail to see how that makes him a nationalist…

    Slamond was democractically voted in… Christine Jardine was told no twice and she buggered off to edinburgh, no doubt a better chance of getting elected there.

    So you don’t like Salmond, well… lets compare him to Carmichael shall we… lol
    I for one like Salmond, what has carmichael ever done for scotland? Aparet from lie about nicola sturgeon..

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    1. Orkney is a net beneficiary from the rest of the country, or is subsidised if you like. Shetland not so much for now but certainly over all.

      Salmond is a cretin of a man. Arrogant, snide, nasty streak.

      But yes, it’s easy to pretend to have a positive case when you can just say yes to whatever independence would mean to every individual, regardless of whether you’ve just told someone else the exact opposite. Fictional what-ifs do tend to be more positive than those which have to defend the status quo.

      Do you not get bored of having this same conversation over and over again? Even if it’s with different people?

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  17. Is it “nationalistic” of me to say that I dont… I mean you are the one with the webpage amd you are asking ME if I get bored…

    What makes Salmond nasty exactly? Course he is arrogant, so is every politician but sometimes that “arrogance” is taken for knowing what you are on about or confidence… like him I am confident talking about scotland.

    Do you not find it easier being negative… easier to shut down am srgument just by saying “nonsense”, governments had been using “deniers” for decades now.

    Orkney and shetland have the lion’s share of maritime borders if they went independent, those islands would be stupidily rich!

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    1. “I am confident talking about Scotland”. Lol.

      Shetland probably would be with the oil and gas nearby, Orkney not so much.

      The blog covers many different topics. This is the same conversation I’ve had about 500 times over in the last 4 years.

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      1. Really… so you are quoting me now, this is the kind of arrogance you probably dont like salmond because.. too similar perhaps or is this you throwing the proverbial out the pram because I have notice a few hypocrisies within your replies… I gues thought, you will NOT be overshadowed on your own turf!

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  18. Seems I have touched a nerve! I know alot of people who cannot handle the mirror being put in their face… You follow negativity, I folow the polar opposite, never the twains shall meet.

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    1. “touched a nerve”… “you follow negativity”… “I am confident speaking of Scotland”… seriously, it’s like every twitter troll I’ve ever had the misfortune to be bored by. You’d think at least one of you would come up with something original once in a while.

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  19. Lol what like “you lot” and the use of the words “troll”, “nationalist”, “cult”, “utopia”, etc etc…

    Dude, I stated some points, points that even challenged your own comments and links… the minute I compared salmond to your lib dem politicians and wannabe politicians you started being an arse!

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    1. No you didn’t. You said you’d rather believe an evidenceless conspiracy theory than the facts we have before us then objected to me calling someone a nationalist. And I haven’t used the phrase “you lot”, or “cult”, or “utopia”. Not that accuracy seems to apply here.

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  20. Sorry mate but a conspiracy theory is a conspiracy WITH evidence… one of the many words/terms you seem to misunderstand…

    The “cult”, “utopia” things was said because you claimed we yes supporters are nor original yet all the no supprters continue to blutlrt out the same tiresome words over amd over again… yet, you only seem to see it from one side of course. I know what boths sides are like!

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    1. Well done on failing to understand what adjectives are for.

      And I’ve never suggested all “yes supporters” are the same, speak the same, think the same, act the same. Only people who peddle identity politics tend to stereotype based on a fundamental constitutional position which they deem to indicate moral worth. My generalisations, overly broad as they may be, have been applied to nationalists or internet trolls only; and only on the subset of behaviours which drive those distinctions.

      But please, feel free to come back and project your bias on me some more.

      Like

  21. “And I’ve never suggested all “yes supporters” are the same, speak the same, think the same, act the same. Only people who peddle identity politics tend to stereotype based on a fundamental constitutional position which they deem to indicate moral worth.”

    1; never said you did
    2; so it is okay for you you label folk as nationalists so only works one way… again.
    3; do you read what you write, seriously, if I ever spoke to anyone like you face to face I’d walk away thinking you were an egotistuc arsehole who really has his head up his own arse… Not fitting in at all with anyone with their own “political website”… *sarcasm

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  22. 1; never said you did

    That’s literally what you said in the last comment – “because you claimed we yes supporters are nor original yet all the no supprters…”

    2; so it is okay for you you label folk as nationalists so only works one way… again.

    If someone is pushing a purely nationalist argument then it makes sense to point that out, no? I never understand why people who would views which are patently nationalist are so ashamed to admit to themselves that their views are nationalist in nature

    3; do you read what you write, seriously, if I ever spoke to anyone like you face to face I’d walk away thinking you were an egotistuc arsehole who really has his head up his own arse… Not fitting in at all with anyone with their own “political website”… *sarcasm

    Yet here you are with comment number 32…

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  23. Yes comment 33 now because up until I poi ted out a few things, you were actually alright, then obviously I touched on something!

    A nationalist agenda… what, scottish independence!!!

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  24. Fraser you call me a nationalist and you state in your first sentence on this very page this is something you dislike, you defend your British identity well, what would you say is the worst sort of nationalist, the Scot like me who simply believes all Countries have the right to run their own affairs but believe being in a larger union like the EU is a good thing, or the British nationalist who wants free from all Unions. Britain has just proved how nationalist it is, the very thing you dislike, you stating “I voted against it, campaigned against it, continue to back attempts to minimise its damage” means nothing unless you are fine with one type of nationalism and not another? Your Country of birth voted remain that is the opposite of nationalism…

    Why is the principle of UK sovereignty and self governance a valid reason to leave the EU, but that principle shouldn’t apply to Scotland within the UK?

    A Unionist is someone who hasn’t yet learned to question the union. A British Nationalist is someone who insists that nobody ever should.

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    1. Good grief this nonsense is never ending.

      It is possible to accept a democratic vote that you disagreed with whilst not endorsing the arguments or sentiment which lead to the result. You know that, right?

      So whilst you can try to claim that I am “fine” with an alternative form of nationalism in an attempt to detoxify or legitimise your own, it simply doesn’t stack up to anyone exercising logic and understanding what my actual position is.

      “Why is the principle of UK sovereignty and self governance a valid reason to leave the EU, but that principle shouldn’t apply to Scotland within the UK?”

      I have never said either position is not “valid”, just that I consider a different constitutional settlement to provide the most likely route to the best outcomes for my family, me and my community. My decision was based on a variety of factors and not simply “this is where someone tells me the border is so that’s where the franchise must end” regardless of the outcomes. I don’t know how many times I need to point this out but by all means let’s go round in circles for a while again.

      You can tell me all about how it’s not nationalist to suggest I should believe the “country of my birth” must “run its own affairs” regardless of what impact that has on my family. You can tell me how it’s not nationalist to argue the franchise *must* start and end at the artificial border you consider to define “us”. And then you can tell me why I should reject the UK because it has voted against my wishes through a vote that was influenced by nationalism; but I would have to accept any settlement where Scotland decides against my wishes through a vote that is influenced by nationalism… because you tell me that “it’s the country of my birth” and that should be paramount.

      Can’t wait to go round and round again.

      Like

  25. Watch yourself Rodric, he will go off on one as you pointed out ANOTHER piece of irony from him… I quote the great Del Rashid and say, this is the unionist paradox

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      1. No irony, I know what I meant, I have just called you a hypocrite abit too much and you didnt like that obviously but at least you accept it though…

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  26. Its OK Fraser I will be on my way, the only reason I made a comment was because your blog appeared on the Free Scotland forum, as I said I prefer to work on folk who consider themselves Scottish as opposed to British. You will fight your corner and I will do the same, interesting times ahead. No hard feeling from me 🙂

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    1. I don’t “consider” myself to be either Scottish or British. I am both. Not as a definition but as a fact. In much the same way I am Aberdonian, right-handed, gaining middle-age spread at a disconcerting rate, going grey, etc… just facts. Adjectives. Not a definition.

      Again, I believe we’ve already covered this but people for whom nationality is a definition, an ingrained part of their identity, really struggle to understand that not everyone thinks the same way.

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  27. I quite like being Scottish and European, Dundonian right-handed, gaining middle-age spread at a disconcerting rate, going grey, etc… with the hope that it would grow in to being a world nationality, however the British nationalist have knocked that on its head…

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  28. In other words…. he chose government over country! I guess, because I chose country over a government that somehow makes me a nasty biased nationalist… somehow! Show I start calling people who choose government over country “Orwellian’s nightmares”, sounds good.
    I still hold that you have no idea about nationalism Mr Whyte and aberdonian… I should have guessed.

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  29. What you bubbling about now Fraser… seriously man, caught out with your irony, hypocrisy and misunderstanding of basic words countless times… your biased while saying people are biased, a nationalist while saying others are nationalist, etc… but of course, you see yourself as an “intelligent man” yet you cannot work out basic things eg what I said earlier about the scottish economy and the behaviour of the uk politicians… lucky you find yourself to be an intellect (no you never stated you were but read between your lines!).

    Like

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